The Conversation
Had a talk with My Friend And Neighbor Next Door (Foliwoman allow me to use your fantastic method of initializing people's names) MFANND. Over a couple of margaritas for me and rum and cokes for him, the discussion became animated. I do love a good debate.
He took the position that there is a life after this one, and that influences his decision to live a good life. Naturally, I had to take the opposite view that there is nothing after this life. I live a good life because I want to, because I choose to and because it makes me feel go to do so. As the discussion continued MFANND get agitated and even upset that I did not believe in any afterlife or god. He suddenly stopped and said "Now, I know why you want to die.... you have no hope."
Well, OK, maybe that is true. I suppose one reason that religion is so successful in all it's permeations is that it is intolerable for most of us to believe that this is all there is. We need a reason to do good. We need to believe that all of the evil in the world, children dying, rape, murder and injustice will somehow be atoned for in some glorious and happy afterlife where the good will be rewarded and evil punished. It is appealing. But just because we wish it to be so, does not make it so. Religion was created by man as a way to control other men. You will behave because the god(s) are watching. Even if you get away with evil in this world, god will get you in the next because god sees all. How appealing. How controlling. A perfect social engineering solution. Never to be proven, or more importantly, disproved.
But, does not believing in god and the afterlife cause one to have a surfeit of hope? Is that why I place such a small value on my life? Is that why suicide is constantly on my mind as an acceptable and normal solution? Hmmmmmmmm, something to think about.
He took the position that there is a life after this one, and that influences his decision to live a good life. Naturally, I had to take the opposite view that there is nothing after this life. I live a good life because I want to, because I choose to and because it makes me feel go to do so. As the discussion continued MFANND get agitated and even upset that I did not believe in any afterlife or god. He suddenly stopped and said "Now, I know why you want to die.... you have no hope."
Well, OK, maybe that is true. I suppose one reason that religion is so successful in all it's permeations is that it is intolerable for most of us to believe that this is all there is. We need a reason to do good. We need to believe that all of the evil in the world, children dying, rape, murder and injustice will somehow be atoned for in some glorious and happy afterlife where the good will be rewarded and evil punished. It is appealing. But just because we wish it to be so, does not make it so. Religion was created by man as a way to control other men. You will behave because the god(s) are watching. Even if you get away with evil in this world, god will get you in the next because god sees all. How appealing. How controlling. A perfect social engineering solution. Never to be proven, or more importantly, disproved.
But, does not believing in god and the afterlife cause one to have a surfeit of hope? Is that why I place such a small value on my life? Is that why suicide is constantly on my mind as an acceptable and normal solution? Hmmmmmmmm, something to think about.
posted by Stoic Stranger at 10:37 AM
8 Comments:
Well, I'm happy to have you follow my creation of acronyms rather than use of actual initials to protect the guilty and the innocent. But afterlife or no-afterlife, this physical life is the only one you get as you. More later. I worry.
Oh, and thanks for crediting me with the acronym-creation-technique (hereinafter referred to as "ACT"), but I just do it to avoid using initials which in the end make people identifiable. Thanks, also, for the link to John Bronze's Stranger's Fever Blog. Kind of makes you want to fly to South West Australia when you feel the verg of something coming on, no?
It takes hope to go on living a good life whilst accepting that there will not be a reward. It's clearly an argument that people desperate to find a point to their lives find solace in religious belief. I have no problem with that at all. But I have a big problem with the inablity to accept that other people choose to deal with this life differently.
Foilwoman: I understand the limitations of having only one life in this body/personality/memory, but losing my life does not seem to be that big of an issue to me. I have been in situations where I thought I would be killed (accidents, carjacking) and I was not scared of dying. Scared of physical injury yes, but not dying. I kept thinking, at least my double indemnity clause will pay out since this is not a suicide. Happy thoughts. On a happier note, glad you like Stranger's Fever.
Spirit: does it really take hope to "go on living a good life whilst accepting that there will not be a reward"? I don't think hope is the emotion here at all. Curiosity, selfishness and plain stubbornness have stood me in good stead. But hope? No, I think MFANND is right, I don't have any of that presently.
Well, Stoic, I made a unilateral offer to you on my blog. You asked me to keep blogging and I said: "I will as long as you do." So there is also the effect we have on others. And if the kid is acting less like an orc, we can't discount your step-parental influence. Maybe not hope, but responsibility, guilt, ties to others, those kinds of things.
Ah yes, guilt and ties to others. That does do it quite effectively. And, as I am a recovering Catholic, I have the guilt thing down. I can feel guilty at the drop of a hat.
Okay, as long as I know the tools I have at my disposal . . .
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